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TIMOTHYZ
Approved
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 21
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 Posted: September 10th, 2008 12:21 PM |
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Hello everyone,
Several people have inquired about the 08 AZ expedition. I would like to offer a summary and I'm sorry it has taken so long to provide information.
The expedition was held on the rim but not in the location of the Issac-Bailey cave. We went to an area with a history of vocalizations and also a area familiar with many of the attendees. Base camp was in a rather central location to provide easy access for the attendees and a large enough area to accomodate vehicles and tents. A remote camp was set up at a location where we had some class "B" activity just two weeks prior to the trip.
We concentrated on the remote camp location the first night and did recieive some vocal responses from two or more directions. We had to consider if these were other campers responding or any other animal. During daylight investigating we found the direction of the responses was an accessible canyon and no campers around. Also while investigating this canyon one attendee found two large impressions on a gravel bar in the creek bed. The impressions did not show detail only the shape of large feet. I tried jumping on the gravel bar to test my own impression. I could make a clear shoeprint but not nearly as deep. It looked as if these impressions were several days old and had been rained on compared to my fresh print. Further down the creek bed were two more possible impressions in mud that looked like partial prints where the mud and water met. With both of these impressions I could see the possible path of travel. With the gravel bar impressions I could see where a biped could have crossed the creek jumping from the creek bench, down onto the bar and then up to the opposite side in one continuous motion.. The distance was about 6' from the bench to the impressions then about 5' to the opposite side of the creek.
The two gravel impressions were staggered with the left slightly forward and the right having a deeper ball of foot indentation. It looked as if a biped jumped landing on both feet but with the right knee bent more giving a deeper ball of foot imprint, perhaps pushing off harder with the right foot.
The mud impressions further down the creek showed a possible rear half of a foot and a possible front half of another but were in mud and water and had suffered some errosion.
I found it very interesting to find impressions and be able to look at the direction of travel and the type of movement that may have created them. The canyon floor was more like a meadow with tall grass on either side of the creek. This was an apparent elk highway with alot of grass trampled making it hard to see any other trail but the impressions on the gravel bar left a distinct impact on me. It was one of those moments where you stare and wonder....
Other attendees may have more to add on their experiences but these were the highlights for me. I will return to this area in the future....
(Edited by TIMOTHYZ)
(Edited by TIMOTHYZ)
BFRO AZ investigator |
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CKnaub
Approved
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 390
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| Posted: September 10th, 2008 03:00 PM |
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Thanks Tim, glad to finally hear a report. It is also good to know there is activity on the rim this year. Maybe more witnesses wil report sightings from this summer.
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Satch Seeker
Approved
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 573
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| Posted: September 10th, 2008 10:39 PM |
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Thanx Tim,very interesting.
If a picture is worth 1000 words,then a video is worth 10,000!! |
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snaggr
Approved
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6
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| Posted: September 11th, 2008 11:02 AM |
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Thanks Tim! I look forward to any other reports. Hope to meet you on the next trip.
Andy |
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Navigator
Administrator
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 395
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| Posted: September 11th, 2008 04:54 PM |
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I stayed at Broken Mirror camp three nights in a row. On the second night I was the only one there. Earlier in the evening the entire group had separated into a few smaller groups and set out in different directions from Broken Mirror Camp. A few possible responses were heard in the distance, but something more telling happened about 15 minutes after everyone had returned to Broken Mirror and saddled up in their vehicles and drove back to the base camp.
I had set up several Reconyx RC60's around the camp earlier in the evening so all I had to do was crawl into my tent and go to sleep after everyone left. I had failed to set up an Edirol (sound recorder) before turning in. The Edirol I had perched in a tree nearby was full from recording through the night on the previous night and I didn't want to erase the whole thing or bust out the laptop to copy everything. In hindsight I should have done that, but that's easy to say now. At the time I had been up for nearly 24 hours. It was cold and the thin air at this high elevation didn't help. My hope was that a squatch would inspect the camp in the wee hours and would be captured by one of the Reconyx units. These trail cams were covering every angle around the tent and every approach into the camp.
About 15 minutes after everyone left a tree came crashing down in the darkness. It sounded as though it was somewhere between 100 yards and 1/4 mile from the camp. There was no wind whatsoever, not even a slight breeze.
Bigfoots do push dead trees over sometimes when they are trying to intimidate people into leaving an area. This has happened on several expeditions.
When we've heard trees fall down at night (with no wind) during certain expeditions, we were alert but not necessarily convinced it was bigfoot related, until something else happened that made it more likely.
On the second British Columbia Coastal Expedition a tree fell down near a camp (about 75 feet away from the camp), and then a moment later another tree feel down about the same distance way, but on THE OPPOSITE SIDE of the camp ... That was way too coincidental, especially in no-wind conditions.
Many other things happened on this BC trip. It wasn't as if the tree falls were the only notable observations.
On the 2007 New Mexico expedition outside Los Alamos we heard a large dead tree fall down, on the opposite flank of a deep canyon. This happened within a few minutes of our simulated howls. OK, we thought ... perhaps it was a coincidence. We waited a while before making more sounds, but then shortly after making more sounds ANOTHER large tree crashes down on the same mountain flank across the canyon.
Our favorite stubborn skeptic from New Mexico -- Alex Downs, the paleontologist from Ghost Ranch Museum -- steps back from the rim of the canyon and is heard saying, sheepishly, "OK, now I'm impressed ..."
So I'm at Broken Mirror Camp in AZ all by myself. About 15 minutes after the last vehicle leaves I heard a crack-crackle-crashing whoosh and caboosh!! A brittle sounding tree (possibly a dead tree) topples over in the dark at least 100 yards away, possibly 1/4 mile away.
Then about 5 minutes later, in the same direction as the sound of the falling tree, but much closer, I hear something that instantly gets my heart pumping and makes me break out in sweat. It was the "almighty exhale" of a very large animal. I didn't hear the inhale, only the exhale. It was only about 50 feet from my tent, outside the perimeter of the camp, and not in view of the trail cameras.
I'm laying there kinda nervous, but also very hopeful that the big-lunged exhaler, whatever it may be, will walk into the camp. I was hoping it was an elk, but the more I thought about how long and deep the exhale was, the more I realized it didn't fit with an elk.
Then I remembered that the witness who tipped us off to this location described hearing the same deep breathing sounds outside her camper. She said it sounded like it came from a large animal with a big lung capacity. This was the same type of sound, and it was indeed unusual, and I got the distinct impression that it was meant to intimidate the human straggler (me) into leaving the camp. I didn't leave, but instead hoped that I would find some excellent images on one of the trail cameras the next morning.
No such luck. I do wish other had been there to hear it, but it wasn't meant to be. Others stayed up there with me on other nights, but nothing like that happened on those nights.
The lesson learned: The solo straggler strategy, which has worked in other states, seems to work well for sound recordings. It involves going into an area and making a certain sequence of simulated sounds until responses are heard, then everyone departs the area except for the individual who is prepared to stick it out through the night ... The camp for that person needs to be previously prepared with trail cameras covering every angle near the tent. There also needs to be at least one high quality stereo audio recorder like a Roland Edirol or something similar.
It can be a terrifying experience, but we don't think it is a safety risk. We've done this enough times and the worst thing that has ever happened was rock throwing (small rocks).
Don't ever try this if you have heart problems.
To mark the location of Broken Mirror Camp I inserted several small pieces of the broken side view mirror (see Report # 24218) into the bark of the big tree nearest to the campfire ring.
(Edited by Navigator) |
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TIMOTHYZ
Approved
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 21
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| Posted: September 11th, 2008 05:14 PM |
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I wanted to add to my previous post that the left imprint was about 15"x8"and 1" to 1 1/2" deep. The right appeared shorter but was deeper at the ball of foot. There may not have been much pressure at the heel to show the full length. I noticed a small plant growing in the right impression and wondered why that was there apparently not bent or damaged. I did my own stomp test on another spot with that same type of plant or grass. The grass bent over but within ten minutes had returned to its original position. The gravel in the prints was clearly pressed down and not scooped out, the foot shape was more obvious in person than what you see in the photos. My straight down stomp test (with my shoe on) left a very similar but shallow, flat impression, only about 1/4" deep. The size of the stones did not provide for much detail and it was hard to judge the age and amount of weathering.
BFRO AZ investigator |
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Savataba
Unregistered
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: September 11th, 2008 09:21 PM |
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In past camping trips I have always heard trees falling over, but up till now I haven't thought about it... BTW, love the pictures.
Nav. Was there any safe guard for your person other than cameras? I'd personally rather have a wooden wall with select entry points and dead falls over said entrances. But that is just me. Upside being you can place a 360 camera trap using the wooden walls as a backdrop. If a bf peaks through the walls the cameras will get a great shot. And remember the NYC rule about cameras. Place cameras to watch cameras. So if someone/thing steals or damages one camera you have them. |
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Savataba
Unregistered
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: September 11th, 2008 09:25 PM |
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Quote:
TIMOTHYZ wrote: I noticed a small plant growing in the right impression and wondered why that was there apparently not bent or damaged. I did my own stomp test on another spot with that same type of plant or grass. The grass bent over but within ten minutes had returned to its original position.
The size of the stones did not provide for much detail and it was hard to judge the age and amount of weathering.
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Plants will spring back to life when they have a good supply of water. Without the water they snap and break.
From your pictures and the time frame of said expo, I'd guess the tracks to be 2 days old, 3 at the most and 12hrs at the least. |
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timsan
Approved
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 184
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| Posted: September 11th, 2008 11:13 PM |
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Awesome description, Navigator! Thanks. I can only imagine how that might get the chest pumping. I probably wouldn't even be able to hear a tree fall!!
every ending is a new beginning |
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GoKimmy
Approved
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: September 12th, 2008 12:29 AM |
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Hi All,
I was really excited to hear about some of the experiences from your Mogollon Rim expedition, in particular about Navigator's experience at Broken Mirror Camp (that broken mirror happened to come off of my van, lol).
I wanted to add one thing that I didn't mention to Tim in our telephone conversations, as I really didn't think much about it at the time. During the weekend of the branch throwing incident I heard several trees in that really dense part of the forest surrounding the site fall, I can't remember now exactly how many, but I'd guess three over the whole weekend. One was actually not too long after the smelling incident in the middle of the night. I remember thinking that weekend that it was odd, we are avid campers and outdoorspeople and have spent a LOT of time in that area and I can only ever remember hearing one tree fall (during a pretty intense monsoon storm). The other events of the weekend sort of overshadowed all else and I didn't really tie to the two together at the time.
We've been back to the area several times since the incident, but have had no new experiences. We have not returned to Broken Mirror Camp yet; after hearing our story and touring the area our friends that go with us have refused to camp there. Those of you who have seen it will know why. Something about it is just a little unnerving, for some reason. Next time we go up alone we hope to camp there again.
I know all about that heart-thumping, adrenaline rush you experienced, Navigator, and can sympathize completely! The events of that weekend has definitely changed us. While it was on the one hand a pretty frightening experience, we are almost hoping for a repeat someday now that we are a little more prepared.
Kim |
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Savataba
Unregistered
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 127
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| Posted: October 4th, 2008 08:36 PM |
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| Ron, there are several of us AZ folk here on the boards as well. |
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TIMOTHYZ
Approved
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 21
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| Posted: October 6th, 2008 07:00 PM |
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Tim here, a discussion about rim migratory habits would be quite speculative but that area is known for it's heavy snowfall which would drive animals out. Some winters we have alot of snow other years not but several feet of snow is not unusual. Weather patterns from season to season have to be watched and an attempt to guess where "they" might be then judged accordingly. Some general ideas, waterways and canyons would provide shelter and an avenue to move from high country to a more favorable climate in times of drought or heavy winter conditions. Also food sources would be more available around fresh water. The unique thing about Arizona and the southwest in general is that animals can change elevation rather quickly to seek more favorable conditions. It can be a matter of days or even hours to drop several thousand feet.
Others on this forum may have more thoughts to add but basically summer up and winter down. Follow waterways or areas where water is nearby and other animals like deer, elk other small mammals are found. Birds are often a good indicator of an active bio zone.
BFRO AZ investigator |
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aciani1
Unregistered
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: October 12th, 2008 04:56 AM |
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Quote:
Savataba wrote:
In past camping trips I have always heard trees falling over, but up till now I haven't thought about it... BTW, love the pictures. |
Not everything you hear crashing down in the woods is a falling tree, or necessarily caused by a BF.
I was walking in the Calaveras Big Trees State Park on one somewhat windy day and heard something come crashing down and make a loud thump and clatter about 200 yards away. It was a single branch that feel, actually right where I had been standing about 2 minutes prior. What was surprising was the small size of the branch for the crack and thud that I heard. I think it was only 3 feet in length, and had a diameter of about 1.5 inches. Not a large branch, but a large sound. BTW, it had fallen from one of the ponderosa pines. At least I think it was a ponderosa.
Several small branches actually fell while I was walking through the short (1 mile) north loop. All of them sounded like they should be rather big. BTW, just so you are aware, a logging/cleaning crew was removing dead trees in the park that day, and I heard them fall a sizable one. The sound wasn't much different from the small branches I heard falling. I mean, it was a good three times louder, and a little more distant, but basically the same sound. |
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PBYodeler
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2975
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| Posted: November 7th, 2008 04:23 AM |
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Ron,
That information is only available to the registered participants of the expeditions. It cannot be released through the forum.
Could you also go to the "Read this first" section on the forum home page and repost your introduction there?
Thanks
PBYodeler |
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PBYodeler
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2975
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| Posted: November 7th, 2008 07:41 PM |
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Money is not the point. As I said that information is only available to the approved and registered attendees of the expeditions. There is no flexibility on this. If you want to see where the expeditions take place you'll have to wait until the next AZ expedition and go yourself.
I also asked you to go to the "Read this first" section on the forum home page and repost your introduction. You need to do that and read the posting guidelines before commenting again.
PBYodeler |
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Navigator
Administrator
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 395
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| Posted: November 7th, 2008 08:21 PM |
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Ron Casner,
There have been bigfoots up on the rim in the summer for a long time -- for as long as there have been elk herds up on the rim in the summer. Both the elk, and the deer, and the bigfoots will be there for a long time to come, so you have time.
You need to sign up earlier next year. We don't give out GPS info to people we don't know, and we like to get to know people in a group context.
If you want to do something with a thermal up there beforehand. I would recommend watching the edges of the larger lakes at night in the summer. Those lakes have loads of crayfish (small freshwater lobsters) around the shores which are quite easy to catch at night. There is reason to suspect that bigfoots will scour the edges of those lakes feeding on the crayfish ... even the lakes with big campgrounds on one side.
There would be no easy way to spot them without a thermal imager. If you started shining around a spotlight they would pull back into the brush quickly and you'd likely never even get a clear glimpse of one ... with a thermal imager, however, you'd be able to observe one for a long time without it knowing it was being observed.
That's our juicy tip for you. Please don't beg and plead for the GPS info for Broken Mirror Camp. No one is going to give it to you without meeting you first.
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AZCRO_ALEX
Approved
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2
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| Posted: June 18th, 2009 02:54 AM |
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What's new this year in Rim area. I've been up to Knoll Lake 2 of the last 3 weekends. I interviewed many but with no new reports. The Elk are up on the rim, but MM may still be below the Rim itself with the cooler temps so far this year. I haven't received any reports this year yet from campers above the rim near the Rim Lakes, except for one from Black Canyon Lake? Black is the lake the farthest to the east, it is also on part of the area that was included in the burn of the Rodeo-Chediski Fires of 2002. I think it may be possible that the creatures are returning to that area and the Indian Reservation beyond. Some theorize that the increased sightings the past few years on the Rim and to the South are due to displaced creatures moving away from the burn area. They may now be moving back?
Navigator, interesting what you said about the Crayfish. For one you are right there are many. Fish and Game actually requests that you remove as many as you can get. What's interesting is I had a very puzzling experience at Bear Canyon Lake last year? Which is probably the closest lake to Knolls and the location of numerous encounters reported here.
I was pretty much alone at the lake it was a week night, and it was just getting dark. The trail down to the lake, winds back and forth because the canyon is so steep. I remember hearing someone walking the trail well I was fishing, at least I thought it was a person . I was getting ready to leave because I hadn't yet set up camp any where and it was near dark. However I started catching fish? I caught 3 in about 40mins. After I got the 3rd one in I almost needed a flashlight to put my gear away. Thinking I kind of messed up and stayed too long, I quickly got picked up. I climbed up the bank to the trail. Now late I cut the trail a couple of times and was up a few levels of the zig zag in no time. Behind me from below where I just came from I heard a couple of loud footfalls? Followed by a couple of splashes? Then I heard what ever it was step out of the water and with the dead silence of the night I could hear the water dripping off it. I was scared, but I wanted to see what it was too. I realized I was unarmed except for my small hunting knife. I stood there for a few seconds and then got the feeling like I should get out of there really quick... I had 1 or two more levels of the trail to go before I could get to my rig. I thought when you get to the p-lot they'll be other cars there and your going to feel like a fool. However when I got there there was no other cars or trucks. Then I realized I couldn't really hear my self walking and I'm a pretty big guy, 225lbs? I've seen many elk in this area, some really big ones, and they can sneak right up on you. What I heard was no dog or even bear, I heard footsteps, loud foot steps. I sat in my truck and just waited a while wondering what just happened.
When I told this story on my forum last year, I really couldn't figure out what the creature would go into the water for. Now, I have a pretty good idea. It really makes since too.
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