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monongahela
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 350
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 Posted: October 15th, 2009 04:30 PM |
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AndrewP and RNOFFKE, I sent PMs to both of you.
Monongahela
sites.google.com/site/mongahela |
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davehaasmn
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: October 15th, 2009 06:18 PM |
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As a lifelong Minnesotan (except for a brief period in ND and Iowa) I can honestly say that those "UnKnown" howls are not wolfs. At least not any wolf that I've ever heard made those.
Incredible stuff folks. Incredible.
Dave
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monongahela
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 350
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| Posted: October 15th, 2009 11:09 PM |
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Just an FYI, but I started another thread on these recordings and my efforts to analyze them. I didn't want to clutter up this thread any more than we have so far. You can follow the conversation at this link:
http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread...hreadid=2124740
And yes, I'm still in the learning stages with spectrograms myself, but some things do leap out at you pretty quickly. For instance, when I look at the spectrograms for the Ohio Howl, the Mississippi Howl, and the Florida Howl from the BFRO website, they all show a very similar signature. In my own vernacular I've come to call it the "arch" howl because the howl starts low, rises in the middle and then drops off at the end, forming an arch on the spectrogram. This isn't to say an arch pattern is exclusive to purported BF howls, but it may be a strong indicator. What I need to do next is identify some other attributes that might help eliminate other animals as the potential source of an arch howl (e.g. common frequency range of wolves vs. coyotes vs. whatever). And there's more to learn about spectrograms that may help me analyze these things in new ways. We'll see.
Monongahela
sites.google.com/site/mongahela |
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RealNewby
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 139
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| Posted: October 16th, 2009 08:36 AM |
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Quote:
monongahela wrote:
Just an FYI, but I started another thread on these recordings and my efforts to analyze them. I didn't want to clutter up this thread any more than we have so far. You can follow the conversation at this link:
http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread...hreadid=2124740
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Just to let you know, the mods closed down that thread wanting to keep the conversation over here.
To squatch, or not to squatch? That is the question. |
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monongahela
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 350
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| Posted: October 16th, 2009 09:28 AM |
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Quote:
RealNewby wrote:
Just to let you know, the mods closed down that thread wanting to keep the conversation over here.
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AndrewP, I guess our good idea got shot down. No big deal. Just as happy to continue the discussion here.
I've gone through a second one of the recordings AndrewP posted above, MN09_04_09172009_HowlsandWolves.
There are fewer surprises in this one versus the first recording I ran spectrograms against earlier. But a couple unique signatures are starting to pop up. As I mentioned in the post that was shot down in the audio recordings discussion, I'm starting to see a pattern that I've nicknamed the "arch" howl. It has a signature that starts low, rises in frequency (and often increases in power and signal breadth) and the drops off toward the end, in both power and frequency. The end result is a visual signal that takes on an arch shape. I've seen this pattern in the Ohio Howl, the Mississippi Howl, and the Florida Howl (all on BFRO's web site). This is not to say that other animals don't make arch howls, but that they might be a good indicator of a BF howl (although other indicators need to be identified to help narrow the field of potential sources, something I'm also working on).
So here are a number of spectrograms generated for the audio file mentioned above. In these you will see the usual flat wolf howls, some POWERFUL howls from an animal that just doesn't sound like the wolves, and some arching howls (a couple of which sound similar to other purpoted BF recordings I've heard). In one call, there's even a frequency change that some might recognize as a whoop (although I've never heard a "good" whoop recording before).
This first spectrogram starts with two wolf howls and ends with a short unidentified howl, unfortunately it was stepped on by an audio source in the fore ground:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
Spectrogram 2 is the first of the powerful howls from something that, to my ear, just doesn't sound quite like the other wolves. You'll notice the raggedness of the signal in the beginning. I think that's a reflection of the howl overpowering the "vocal" capability of the animal (it's yelling so loud it can't maintain a constant volume level):
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
Spectrogram 3 is just a good long wolf howl, very flat signal:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
Spectrogram 4 is pretty spectacular because of the POWER and CONTROL the source exhibits. The howl begins with a volume build up and frequency modulation, then settles into a blast of a yell that BUILDS in power and volume (indicated by the brighter yellow colors) until it abruptly cuts off at the end. It takes real vocal control to do so much in such a short span of time (less than 2.5 seconds:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
Spectrogram 5 starts with another powerful, or over powered, howl which then tapers off in frequency similar to an arch howl. This is answered with a strong howl that demonstrates the arch howl signature described above:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
Spectrogram 6 - the only thing new in this one is the long wolf howl response to the two howls in spectrogram 5:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
Spectrogram 7 shows two arching howls in succession, but the second one has a flat wolf howl mixed into the middle of it:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
Spectrogram 8 shows the same arch howl that ends spectrogram 7, but then shows a another odd howl that starts out with power and then quickly escalates in frequency. This one sounds something like a whoop to me, but probably not fully formed. I invite others who have heard whoops before to listen to the audio file (linked in AndrewP's post above) and share their opinion. Here's the spectrogram:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
The last spectrogram, number 9, has two interesting features. The first is a faint yelp or short howl heard in the background. And the second is a final blast from the powerful howler. It contains the typical overpowered signature as noted earlier in the recording, but this one starts out with a bark, that noticeably modulates the frequency signature at the beginning of the call:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
A great recording.
(Edited by monongahela)
Monongahela
sites.google.com/site/mongahela |
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djy100
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 80
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| Posted: October 16th, 2009 10:05 AM |
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| Do we have a spectrogram from a human doing a howl,? There are several people out who do great howls. It would be interesting to see the comparison to the findings above. Are there any other animals in MN that have a similar range? |
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RealNewby
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 139
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| Posted: October 16th, 2009 10:43 AM |
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Quote:
djy100 wrote:
Do we have a spectrogram from a human doing a howl,? There are several people out who do great howls. It would be interesting to see the comparison to the findings above. Are there any other animals in MN that have a similar range?
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That's a good idea. If you are asking for volunteers, I know of at least one person you should immediately rule out. During expedition, several camps set up a howl chain starting at the most northern camp progressing south and ending up with KB. The first couple were very well done, clear, crisp, well executed. Then it was KB's turn. He let out his version that was quite unique. I believe it sounded like a cross between a large housecat caught in the spin cycle and Roseann Barr singning the national anthem.
There could have been a dozen sasquatch responses but no one heard them because we were all laughing too hard. A highlight of the trip, at least in my opinion.
To squatch, or not to squatch? That is the question. |
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monongahela
Approved
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 350
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| Posted: October 16th, 2009 11:06 AM |
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That's hilarious. Roseann Bar, who could forget that voice.
I do have a couple of audio files with people on them doing howls. One is from Arkansas, and I believe it's Matt Moneymaker doing the howl in the beginning of the audio. I've looked at the spectrogram from that call and from an "arch" howl perspective, it is very well executed (but doesn't drop off toward the end as well).
I'm going to put a small library of these arch calls, but will probably start that as a separate thread over in the audio recording discussion. Just need time to get around to it (I'm supposed to be working right now!).
In a general sense, these arch howls all look very similar. But I need to understand the spectrograms better to see what else might be there. For instance, are there really multiple frequencies in a call, or are they all just harmonics of the main frequency band? What's the typical frequency range of these calls, and what's the typical frequency breadth of theses calls (some calls are very broad on the frequency spectrum).
I've been doing some googling about how to read spectrograms, and there's some useful (but technical) info out there. Just not enough time in the day.
Monongahela
sites.google.com/site/mongahela |
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fatbob
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6
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| Posted: October 16th, 2009 02:36 PM |
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| Were the hair or scat samples tested at all? |
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AndrewP
Moderator
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 158
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| Posted: October 16th, 2009 04:17 PM |
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Quote:
fatbob wrote:
Were the hair or scat samples tested at all?
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Scat no (too old). Hair I'll send in to the BFRO for analysis this winter.
Andy P.
MN BFRO Investigator
2009 Minnesota Expedition Organizer |
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monongahela
Approved
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 350
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| Posted: October 16th, 2009 10:20 PM |
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OK, three more spectrograms, one for each of the three shorter clips provided above.
The first shows a faint signal of a distant but powerful howl in the background. It gets stepped on by a voice in the fore ground, but it's still a remarkable howl:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
The second shows a complex, four tone howl that rapidly changes pitch. It's stepped on by some noise in the foreground, but I've labeled the four tones of the howl for easier viewing. When you listen closely to this howl it's a very remarkable call, unlike anything I've ever heard in the wild. The howl is followed closely by a repeat of the now common "powerful" howl of an unknown source:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
The third recording is the most remarkable of all, in my opinion. This one contains a repeat of the four tone howl mentioned above. But this time there's no interference, its clear, powerful, and the four tones are easily identifiable. You can even discern the ascending "power-up" at the beginning of the 1st tone which starts at a low frequency and climbs up to a powerful blast. The end of the spectrogram shows a nice, mellow wolf howl response:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...feat=directlink
Monongahela
sites.google.com/site/mongahela |
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Tretiak
Unregistered
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 171
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| Posted: October 17th, 2009 09:14 AM |
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Is there anywhere in the area where you were at that you could take advantage of a high vantage point? I'm thinking that this would allow for a greater visual range, plus a better locate from where the howls were coming from. Any fire towers one could get up to look from?
"So close,....... yet so far!" |
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RealNewby
Approved
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 139
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| Posted: October 17th, 2009 09:54 AM |
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Quote:
Tretiak wrote:
Is there anywhere in the area where you were at that you could take advantage of a high vantage point? I'm thinking that this would allow for a greater visual range, plus a better locate from where the howls were coming from. Any fire towers one could get up to look from?
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Tretiak-
Although this is a legitimate and good question, we won't be able to provide you an answer because the location needs to be kept confidential. We've been advised that this location is of high interest to several that may not have the sasquatch's best interest in mind.
It may seem innocent enough, but any specific details could give the location away and that would be a bad thing. Sorry.
To squatch, or not to squatch? That is the question. |
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Thompsy
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 236
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| Posted: October 17th, 2009 11:34 AM |
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Quote:
AndrewP wrote:
Scat no (too old). Hair I'll send in to the BFRO for analysis this winter.
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Andy, I do have a few photo's of some large scat I showed you that was found near SS's sighting location. Very large stuff. I can try to post them, or email them to you to post. I don't have a photo bucket account. Let me know.
Married white male seeking class A sighting of Biggie!
2009 MN Expedition. |
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monongahela
Approved
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 350
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| Posted: October 17th, 2009 02:06 PM |
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Quote:
djy100 wrote:
Do we have a spectrogram from a human doing a howl,? There are several people out who do great howls. It would be interesting to see the comparison to the findings above. Are there any other animals in MN that have a similar range?
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DJY - here's a link to a small set of spectrograms. The first is a human voice doing a very good impersonation of a moaning howl. The next three images are spectrograms of real howls recorded in Ohio, Florida, and Mississippi:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mongahe...feat=directlink
Monongahela
sites.google.com/site/mongahela |
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djy100
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 80
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| Posted: October 17th, 2009 09:44 PM |
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| Thanks, I'll take a look. |
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RNOFFKE
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 37
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ApesAmongUs
Approved
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 71
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| Posted: October 20th, 2009 04:14 PM |
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| Wow! Interesting that the wolves and subject are interacting. Fantastic recordings, I felt like I was there. What a great expedition. I'm envious. |
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RealNewby
Approved
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 139
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| Posted: October 22nd, 2009 03:18 PM |
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I've been reflecting upon the events that took place during the expedition, looked back at the photos of the site, re-read my notes, listened to the recordings again and have had a bit of an epiphany. I honestly don't know why it has taken a month to come to this realization, but it has.
Bascially, I'm one lucky fellow. For three nights in the Minnesota woods, I was literally within a few feet of such beautiful and mysterious animals. They came into our camp, walked around our tents, checked out our equipment, threw berries and candy at us, incredible!
How many people in this world can claim to have been within mere feet of a sasquatch? I can, and for some unknown reason, it's just starting to sink in now how special this truly was to experience. Great time indeed.
To squatch, or not to squatch? That is the question. |
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ApesAmongUs
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 71
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| Posted: October 22nd, 2009 03:23 PM |
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RN,
Just curious....at any point were you afraid? |
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RealNewby
Approved
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 139
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| Posted: October 22nd, 2009 05:06 PM |
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Quote:
ApesAmongUs wrote:
RN,
Just curious....at any point were you afraid?
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I have said previously that "I've never been so scared, yet had so much fun in my life", but in reality, I never felt threatened nor was I afraid for my own safety. I had moments where I felt "uncomfortable", but it wasn't fear.
I may be in the minority (and a bit wacked), but I would actually like to experience being "zapped". I am really interested in getting to feel that sensation. It didn't happen this trip, so maybe next time. And there will be a next time, that is for sure.
To squatch, or not to squatch? That is the question. |
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monongahela
Approved
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 350
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| Posted: October 22nd, 2009 09:08 PM |
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Thanks to RNOFFKE for providing these additional audio clips. I was able to develop some spectrograms of these calls and in many cases (up to 8) I could match calls on RNOFFKE's recording to calls on AndrewP's recordings. This is extremely useful because it gives a second perspective on the same call, which can offer better clues and details about what's really going on.
These new spectrograms are at this link:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mongahe...255858397886130
Take note of the captions below the RNOFFKE howls that I was able correlate, they'll contain a link to the matching howl in the AndrewP spectrograms.
(Edited by monongahela)
Monongahela
sites.google.com/site/mongahela |
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pevarnikd
Approved
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 59
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| Posted: October 22nd, 2009 09:27 PM |
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Monogahela,
Check your PMs
I believe in a God that I have never seen and I'm called a man of faith. I believe in a Big Hairy Ape that I have never seen and I'm called crazy |
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Barb Kaz
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 117
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| Posted: October 22nd, 2009 11:30 PM |
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Quote:
RealNewby wrote:
I may be in the minority (and a bit wacked), but I would actually like to experience being "zapped".
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RN,
I feel the same as you (in the minority, and a bit wacked), in that it doesn't bother me to be alone in the pitch black woods in the middle of the night, and I also wanted to experience being "zapped". But after talking to a more experienced person on the last expedition, and hearing about some of the serious medical problems some people have had after a prolonged "zapping", I've changed my mind. These people have been profoundly changed after such an experience. I don't take it as lightly as I used to.
Barb Kaz
NW PA 08
NW PA 09 |
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monongahela
Approved
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 350
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| Posted: October 23rd, 2009 12:56 PM |
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pevarnikd,
Saw your PM and sent you an email. Can do.
Monongahela
sites.google.com/site/mongahela |
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vanedwards5150
Approved
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1
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| Posted: November 15th, 2009 12:51 PM |
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Sounds like an awesome expedition Andy. Really sorry I couldn't make it. Thought I would share my experience in the deep Norhthern woods of Minnesota. Memorial Day Weekend of 2008 I traveled to a place called "The Gulch" a remote wooded forest. I hadn't been there for years. I was just slowly driving the back roads and enjoying the nature when to my left I noticed a distinct teepee type structure in the woods. I stopped and right away thought what this had to be. It was about 30 yards into the woods. I went to investigate. There was no way wind could have blown these trees into this formation. Why would any person construct this? I check for recent Minnesota reports and found a few months later that several girls on a camping trip had an encounter (BFRO Report #24089) and this encounter was probably no more than a mile to a mile and a half from where I found this structure. Their encounter was just a couple weeks after I found this structure. I have pictures I'll try to post.
(Edited by PBYodeler) |
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PBYodeler
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1868
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| Posted: November 15th, 2009 06:48 PM |
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vanedwards5150
We don't allow any talk at all regarding guns, politics or religion. It always turns into an argument if we allow itto continue so it's not allowed to even begin. And we don't want any personal contact information displayed on the forum where anyone can view it.
You also need to go to the "read this first" section on the forum home page, read the posting guidelines and post your introduction before making any other comments.
PBYodeler |
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narrowfoot
Approved
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 276
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| Posted: November 15th, 2009 09:35 PM |
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I would like to see your photos, after you're approved. Perhaps they should go in the Images forum. Thanks for the description of the structure you observed..
"Technological advances are not limited to human populations." |
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minnesota dave24
Approved
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 149
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| Posted: December 17th, 2009 11:15 AM |
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i admit it i had not listened to the recordings until today. i had the mindset that well i can wait and let everyone else hear them now, besides i got to hear these in person. so i had put it off for a while.
and WOW after listening again what an eerie memory of that night
"Growing older is killing a child" Stephin Merritt |
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Buttersquatch
Approved
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 70
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| Posted: December 17th, 2009 11:40 AM |
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Quote:
RealNewby wrote:
I've been reflecting upon the events that took place during the expedition, looked back at the photos of the site, re-read my notes, listened to the recordings again and have had a bit of an epiphany. I honestly don't know why it has taken a month to come to this realization, but it has.
Bascially, I'm one lucky fellow. For three nights in the Minnesota woods, I was literally within a few feet of such beautiful and mysterious animals. They came into our camp, walked around our tents, checked out our equipment, threw berries and candy at us, incredible!
How many people in this world can claim to have been within mere feet of a sasquatch? I can, and for some unknown reason, it's just starting to sink in now how special this truly was to experience. Great time indeed.
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Are you sure it wasnt someone just screwing with you? Sounds a bit peculiar a bag of candy flying out of the woods. Something my buddies and I would do to one another. Also i listened to the Audio files, Sounds a lot like canine to me but I didnt use a headset so maybe thats what im missing. |
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