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hc8112
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 226
Registered: Mar 2009 |
 Posted 02-05-10 12:09 PM IP   
Since it looks like the "solving Kearney problem" thread has veered off in a whole other direction and I would hate to have the casual observer think that 8 pages was devoted to that subject, maybe we can continue the status of HC athletics and academics thread here.
While I would love to see our athletics improve dramatically, I would not want to dramatically lower the academic standards of our student athletes.
Recognizing as a friend of mine used to say that Patrick Ewing bought a lot of test tubes for G'Town and that BC is paved with Flutie gold, I think a very small liberal arts college like HC would have a more difficult time lowering the academic standards for its athletes when 25% of our 2800 students are varsity athletes. Also, Title IX really impacts how many schollies we can reasonably give out in mens sports because, as I understand it, we would have to give out the same number of women's schollies. Thus, I think offering 20 football scholarships at any one time would cost the school $2,000,000 in room and board every year since we would have to add 20 women's scholarships(40x $50,000). This would have to be a major long term investment that might or might not show a return.
I, for one, would love to see us out of the PL for Bball. It is not that I don't like the other PL schools, but it makes no geographic sense. I hate being the only New England school in the conference. Then again, this may be our only remaining similarity to BC, we're noth the only New England schools in our respective conferences. Unfortunately, all of the other schools in New England of our size and academics are D-III and we don't want to go there. Maybe we need to get bigger but that would really change the character of the school.
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WMass
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 484
Registered: Oct 2009 |
Posted 02-05-10 12:14 PM IP
Although it's painful as hell to recall, we were crushed a few years ago by a Div III (Div II?) school whose academic reputation we could only dream about. Can you say Williams?
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bigjohnhc
Perry Millenium Club (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1273
Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted 02-05-10 12:20 PM IP
Quote:
WMass wrote:
Although it's painful as hell to recall, we were crushed a few years ago by a Div III (Div II?) school whose academic reputation we could only dream about. Can you say Williams?
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I think thats where people get the DIII argument from. I still contend that we can have the best of both worlds.
8112, I don't think that getting bigger would necessarily change the character of the school. BC, Georgetown are bigger and still are Jesuit institutions.
Plenty of big schools on this list:
http://www.ajcunet.edu/Member-Institutions
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WMass
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 484
Registered: Oct 2009 |
Posted 02-05-10 12:25 PM IP
I know this is anathema and I will get creamed for raising this but.......if you eliminate the yearning for our past sports glories (which are never going to return), our whole situation is so much more in synch with Div II. We have to face the fact that we are a high quality, but very small college. Why do we have to agonize about supporting a ton of Div I sports? Yes, our fball, bball and ice hockey teams will occasionally win their conference under our present Div I status, but is it worth the price we pay for that, including the awful won/loss records of our other sports teams. Don't our "minor" sports student atheletes deserve a realistic shot at competitive success? We're swimming in a pond that is too big for us in today's world. Reduce the size of the pond and we'll all experience the thrill of victory much more often.
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hc8112
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 226
Registered: Mar 2009 |
Posted 02-05-10 12:27 PM IP
Quote:
bigjohnhc wrote:
I think thats where people get the DIII argument from. I still contend that we can have the best of both worlds.
8112, I don't think that getting bigger would necessarily change the character of the school. BC, Georgetown are bigger and still are Jesuit institutions.
Plenty of big schools on this list:
http://www.ajcunet.edu/Member-Institutions
I didn't mean Jesuit character; rather, I was referring to the small school feel of the place where everyone seems to know everyone else and the professors get to know you well. While Gtown and BC are great Jesuit Universities they are not small liberal arts colleges like HC.
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bigjohnhc
Perry Millenium Club (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1273
Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted 02-05-10 12:30 PM IP
Quote:
WMass wrote:
I know this is anathema and I will get creamed for raising this but.......if you eliminate the yearning for our past sports glories (which are never going to return), our whole situation is so much more in synch with Div II. We have to face the fact that we are a high quality, but very small college. Why do we have to agonize about supporting a ton of Div I sports? Yes, our fball, bball and ice hockey teams will occasionally win their conference under our present Div I status, but is it worth the price we pay for that, including the awful won/loss records of our other sports teams. Don't our "minor" sports student atheletes deserve a realistic shot at competitive success? We're swimming in a pond that is too big for us in today's world. Reduce the size of the pond and we'll all experience the thrill of victory much more often.
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Either that, or switch the "minor" sports as you call them to club teams so that students still have the opportunity to participate with the understanding that the "major" teams are the focus. If thats the sacrafice you make for the big 4, Hockey, Basketball, Baseball, Football, then sign me up. Women's offsetting sports are the same with Softball and maybe field hockey/lacrosse/ soccer opposite football and baseball.
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bigjohnhc
Perry Millenium Club (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1273
Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted 02-05-10 12:32 PM IP
Quote:
hc8112 wrote:
I didn't mean Jesuit character; rather, I was referring to the small school feel of the place where everyone seems to know everyone else and the professors get to know you well. While Gtown and BC are great Jesuit Universities they are not small liberal arts colleges like HC.
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I see your point.
Under the current environment, I think it might be tough to hold onto that small time appeal. If you go big time I think the school would have to grow. I think that is the price we would have to pay.
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bigjohnhc
Perry Millenium Club (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1273
Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted 02-05-10 12:35 PM IP
Quote:
HC1843 wrote:
fair enough bigjohn, but as a parting shot, the thinking that these scores should never be used to judge the quality of students at an institution smacks of the new sports and/or fuzzy math, where everyone wins, nobody loses and everyone gets a ribbon. This sets kids up for failure and the sting of reality smacking them across the face like a sack of bricks when someone tells them years down the road that they didn't make the cut.
Cheers.
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KeatsHC05 wrote:
I see your point-
similar in a way, to how a recruit might be more apt to commit to a team that is over .500 with some quality wins.
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HC1843 wrote:
bingo.
Cheers.
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Ouch!!
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KY Crusader 75
Heinsohn Court (over 5000 Tommy Points)
Posts: 6384
Registered: Jul 2004 |
Posted 02-05-10 12:37 PM IP
Quote:
WMass wrote:
Although it's painful as hell to recall, we were crushed a few years ago by a Div III (Div II?) school whose academic reputation we could only dream about. Can you say Williams?
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A once in a lifetime, lightning in a bottle, cataclysmic event that we will be reading about on this board over and over and over and over and over again as long as we all shall live.
I wonder, in a comparable vein, how long Gtown people talked about the loss to Chaminade
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KY Crusader 75
Heinsohn Court (over 5000 Tommy Points)
Posts: 6384
Registered: Jul 2004 |
Posted 02-05-10 12:41 PM IP
Quote:
bigjohnhc wrote:
Either that, or switch the "minor" sports as you call them to club teams so that students still have the opportunity to participate with the understanding that the "major" teams are the focus. If thats the sacrafice you make for the big 4, Hockey, Basketball, Baseball, Football, then sign me up. Women's offsetting sports are the same with Softball and maybe field hockey/lacrosse/ soccer opposite football and baseball.
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You've laid out a very reasonable proposition. I don't think I'd switch all the "minor" sports to club status, but that certainly makes sense for many of them in my opinion. I believe Holy Cross once had a wrestling team and a fencing team--are we diminished by their loss? I suppose some would say so but not I.
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bigjohnhc
Perry Millenium Club (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1273
Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted 02-05-10 12:46 PM IP
Quote:
KY Crusader 75 wrote:
You've laid out a very reasonable proposition. I don't think I'd switch all the "minor" sports to club status, but that certainly makes sense for many of them in my opinion. I believe Holy Cross once had a wrestling team and a fencing team--are we diminished by their loss? I suppose some would say so but not I.
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I have many friends that were D1 athletes at HC. Baseball, Basketball, Football and Swimming mainly. I think the swimmers I know might be pissed, but I think they would come to grips with it if we were great at those sports I listed.
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johnny
Lockbaum League (over 500 posts)
Posts: 734
Registered: Dec 2005 |
Posted 02-05-10 01:58 PM IP
Quote:
KY Crusader 75 wrote:
A once in a lifetime, lightning in a bottle, cataclysmic event that we will be reading about on this board over and over and over and over and over again as long as we all shall live.
I wonder, in a comparable vein, how long Gtown people talked about the loss to Chaminade
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You mean Virginia? Did Gtown lose to them also?
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KY Crusader 75
Heinsohn Court (over 5000 Tommy Points)
Posts: 6384
Registered: Jul 2004 |
Posted 02-05-10 02:30 PM IP
Quote:
johnny wrote:
You mean Virginia? Did Gtown lose to them also?
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I do mean Virginia--sorry. Thanks for catching the error.
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KeatsHC05
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 124
Registered: Jun 2009 |
Posted 02-05-10 02:36 PM IP
Quote:
bigjohnhc wrote:
I see your point.
Under the current environment, I think it might be tough to hold onto that small time appeal. If you go big time I think the school would have to grow. I think that is the price we would have to pay.
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what about davidson
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bigjohnhc
Perry Millenium Club (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1273
Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted 02-05-10 02:47 PM IP
Quote:
KeatsHC05 wrote:
what about davidson
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1,700 students at Davidson.
Curry is the only reason they were relevant. Their schedule is not impressive and they are at .500 right now.
http://www.davidsonwildcats.com/sch...px?path=mbball&
Conference RPI Rankings
http://www.realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html
Conference Power Ratings
http://www.realtimerpi.com/ncaab/conf_Men.html
Our league sucks this year.
Davidson is in the same boat as Bucknell, if they had the opportunity they should have jumped to a big time conference and recruited as such. That jump for a school of Davidson's size makes/made little sense monetarily. Thats why I argue that if we went big we would have to get bigger as a school. $$ That almighty dollar at work.
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KY Crusader 75
Heinsohn Court (over 5000 Tommy Points)
Posts: 6384
Registered: Jul 2004 |
Posted 02-05-10 02:51 PM IP
Good point on Davidson. I think a number of the schools we cite as having "top academics/top athletics success" have a few strong years that may well be anomalies rather than the norm. Wake Forest football may be a prime example of that
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WMass
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 484
Registered: Oct 2009 |
Posted 02-05-10 03:14 PM IP
KY- You may not shed a tear for lack of wrestling and fencing, but I graduated from a prep school that has nationally prominent wrestling & fencing programs. I have to think there have been a number of wrestlers & fencers who might have liked to go to HC but for the fact that HC doesn't have teams in those two sports--whether club or varsity. (Coincidentally, the top wrestlers went to Lehigh, which has a nationally prominent wrestling tradition and is the perennial site of the Eastern Prep Wrestling Championships.)
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dadominate
Perry Millenium Club (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1536
Registered: Jul 2004 |
Posted 02-05-10 03:18 PM IP
wrestling is definitely becoming more popular with the rise in popularity of mma. those with a wrestling background have a distinct advantage over those without it.
want REAL healthcare reform?
stop pharmaceutical industry control over medical research and the practice of medicine and watch the following...
http://www.moneytalksthemovie.com/film.html
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eric...
Lockbaum League (over 500 posts)
Posts: 884
Registered: Sep 2005 |
Posted 02-05-10 03:28 PM IP
Quote:
KeatsHC05 wrote:
what about davidson
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davidson isnt big time. pomeroy rankings the three years before curry arrived: 147, 130, 132. pomeroy ranking the first year after curry left: 144.
conclusion: curry was big time. davidson? not much different than hc.
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on the whole cutting sports thing, be cognizant of the kind of money you can actually expect to save.
for example, the tennis teams (combined) appear to have approximately $80,000 in coaching expenses (plus benefits) and $20,000 in operating expenses. thats two sports cut and, by the time you fund true club teams (with part time coaches) youre saving maybe $50,000 per team. from that you can then subtract the ensuing cuts in donations from alums and parents of team members.
the track teams (combined) have total operating and coaching expenses in the $300,000 range (plus benefits for two head coaches). but again, subtract any resulting cuts in donations from the 30-40 alums these teams produce each year.
at this point you have five teams left to cut, have saved $450,000 on the expense-side and angered more than 5% of your alumni base in the process. (in a typical year, that group would be expected to donate over $1 million.)
do they all stop giving entirely? no. but unless youre sure that their $1.2 million in annual giving wont turn into $800,000, leaving you nowhere better financially and down six sports teams, its probably a good idea to keep them around.
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WMass
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 484
Registered: Oct 2009 |
Posted 02-05-10 04:36 PM IP
Eric- My main point wasn't about money. It was about competitiveness.
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WMass
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 484
Registered: Oct 2009 |
Posted 02-05-10 04:43 PM IP
Let me try to make my point in a different way. One group of posters here would only be happy if we played the entire season against top ten teams. (I'm exaggerating to make my point.) We would lose every game but we would have a helluva strength-of-schedule rating. I would rather play an entire season against teams wherein every game we had a 50/50 chance of winning/losing. I wouldn't care the names of the opponents. THAT would be an exciting season--for the fans, the coaches and the players.
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bigjohnhc
Perry Millenium Club (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1273
Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted 02-05-10 05:00 PM IP
Quote:
WMass wrote:
I would rather play an entire season against teams wherein every game we had a 50/50 chance of winning/losing. I wouldn't care the names of the opponents. THAT would be an exciting season--for the fans, the coaches and the players.
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Isn't that what we currently have in the PL? I am thinking we only have a 50 percent chance or less of winning anymore PL league games this year. And by all remarks from the board, this has not been an exciting season, but rather a frustrating one.
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islander
Climbing Mount St. James
Posts: 74
Registered: Jan 2006 |
Posted 02-05-10 06:34 PM IP
Put me squarely in the camp of those who would like to see fewer varsity teams at Holy Cross.
We have a school of 2,800-2,900 more than half of which are female. Yet there are more varsity teams, a lot more, than prior to going co-ed and that pertains to men's teams as well.
Just as the vast majority of our players will never make the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc. and the players' careers will end after their college playing days, high school athletes in swimming and lacrosse and tennis should understand that their careers end after high school and many can still play the sports they love on a non-competitive basis.
I'd rather scarce resources be focused on teams that will increase the College's visibility. Basketball, football, hockey and probably soccer and baseball due to the already great facilities. The ladies can have their equivilent sport minus football, of course. If we go schollies, I am sure we can add a few additional women's sports like field hockey, lacrosse, tennis for title IX purposes.
(Edited by islander)
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WMass
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 484
Registered: Oct 2009 |
Posted 02-05-10 07:25 PM IP
bigjohnhc- The 50/50 formula clearly isn't working this year for both bball teams and it hardly ever works for our non-major sports teams. We usually are in the cellar of the PL's Presidents' Cup, something that doesn't seem to bother the posters here as it it is hardly ever mentioned. It confirms my point about the non-Div I-competitiveness of most of our teams.
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HC70
Heinsohn Court (over 5000 Tommy Points)
Posts: 6484
Registered: Jul 2008 |
Posted 02-05-10 07:42 PM IP
Quote:
islander wrote:
Put me squarely in the camp of those who would like to see fewer varsity teams at Holy Cross.
We have a school of 2,800-2,900 more than half of which are female. Yet there are more varsity teams, a lot more, than prior to going co-ed and that pertains to men's teams as well.
Just as the vast majority of our players will never make the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc. and the players' careers will end after their college playing days, high school athletes in swimming and lacrosse and tennis should understand that their careers end after high school and many can still play the sports they love on a non-competitive basis.
I'd rather scarce resources be focused on teams that will increase the College's visibility. Basketball, football, hockey and probably soccer and baseball due to the already great facilities. The ladies can have their equivilent sport minus football, of course. If we go schollies, I am sure we can add a few additional women's sports like field hockey, lacrosse, tennis for title IX purposes.
(Edited by islander)
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Did we go to more sports to mimic the Ivies (as I bend the knee).
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WMass
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 484
Registered: Oct 2009 |
Posted 02-05-10 11:39 PM IP
A group representing all constituencies (students, faculty, administrators, trustees, coaches, players, alums, Worcester community, high school coaches that have been feeders to HC, etc.) needs to come together, with the buy-in of the President, to re-vision sports at HC.
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KY Crusader 75
Heinsohn Court (over 5000 Tommy Points)
Posts: 6384
Registered: Jul 2004 |
Posted 02-05-10 11:58 PM IP
Quote:
HC70 wrote:
Did we go to more sports to mimic the Ivies (as I bend the knee).
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Think about it. Don't we have fewer sports for men than we had when you were a Crusader? Maybe we added sports for women when HC became a coeducational college?
Can we give the "bend the knee to the Ivies" shtick a rest?
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KeatsHC05
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 124
Registered: Jun 2009 |
Posted 02-06-10 09:04 AM IP
Quote:
KY Crusader 75 wrote:
Think about it. Don't we have fewer sports for men than we had when you were a Crusader? Maybe we added sports for women when HC became a coeducational college?
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Title 9
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WMass
Crusader Century Club Poster
Posts: 484
Registered: Oct 2009 |
Posted 02-06-10 10:25 AM IP
We are bound by a mountain of NCAA/PL/anti-discrimination rules. Tel you what. Let's go completely independent again in all sports. We'll play who we want. I'm sure many schools would want to play us as their OOC opponent. We could schedule interesting opponents at good locations, etc . What a breath of fresh air. What do we give up? The automatic place in the NCAA campionship, bus trips to Nowhere, PA. BIG DEAL--THE CHANCE TO LOSE TO A NAME OPPONENT. YIPEE! It's way worth it to go independent.
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CROSSPORTS :: Sports :: Men's Basketball :: New thread on HC trends
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