BFRO / What's New - America and Canada / Archives / 03-29-2007 / Report #15821; 2005 CA class A

Topie: Report #15821; 2005 CA class A Page: 1 2
October 25th, 2006 11:13 PM
monkeychaser I'm starting this thread to answer any questions concerning the incident or the investigation of the report.

I updated the report Oct. 25 to include some info that I was able to obtain by visiting the site with the witness.

For those who have not read the report, here's the link:

http://bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=15821

I will post a few photos in my gallery soon.
October 26th, 2006 12:07 AM
ddandrie Might it be possible the witness placed the camp right next to her favorite beautifull place to take a bath?
October 26th, 2006 07:35 AM
mohara one question on the description: the witness relates colors of the eyes and nipples. i agree that the full moon can be very bright in areas without artificial light, and especially at altitude. however, moonlight doesnt show colors. about all that could be said is that something was dark or light. seems that the color info must be the witness's reasoning after the fact. not that this takes away any credibility, just saying that this points out how we must be careful about which information was observed at the time and which was filled in later as the experience repeated in the witness's mind.
October 26th, 2006 09:05 AM
stealthman4220 I am trying to figure what it woud have done had it been able to get near the wittness before being driven off every time it was advancing. Most likely due to rock throwing it was trying to scare him away so if it did get close it would be a scare tactic, am I correct in thinking this?
October 26th, 2006 09:06 AM
stealthman4220 I am trying to figure what it woud have done had it been able to get near the wittness before being driven off every time it was advancing. Most likely due to rock throwing it was trying to scare him away so if it did get close it would be a scare tactic, am I correct in thinking this?
October 26th, 2006 11:12 AM
CKnaub I would think that if it wanted to do harm it could have come back quietly and jumped him from behind. Also there is a mention of her looking back towards the tree line briefly at one point, perhaps she had young to protect. Also, where there fish or crawfish in the water. It may have been a regular feeding place for her. Just my thoughts.
October 26th, 2006 12:16 PM
timidyshadowhider so the first thing the person saw was a smaller bigfoot-probably a child. Then the mama came. Yep, Id be peeing my pants too! The investigator spoke of a deep depression I believe in the tree area? Maybe this mama bf and her child(ren) were frequent users of this area, and when the little one woke up saw the tent and stuff decided to explore-when the shots came, and it scurried back into the trees, it probably was scared enough to pee too. So then mama sits there comforting it and then gets upset and wants to go find out what did this to the smaller one? Hence the female that came after the camper? Maybe she threw the rocks in the water as a go away sign? You really do have to wonder what would have happened if the camper had just sat still and watched, but then how many of us would have dared to do that? Unless we were so scared we couldnt move! It sounds like a most beautiful area. Bigfoot must love the best scenery also.
October 26th, 2006 12:25 PM
monkeychaser Mohara, I asked the witness about the quality of the light, and he stated that it was bright enough to read by; this was facilitated by the light colored granite cap rock everywhere. Good point about the functions of recall compared to the actual events, though.
Color perception info:
The brain has amazing functions that have not been able to be recreated in machines, yet. When given incomplete information, it will "fill in the gaps" based on past experience (learning) automatically. I agree that moonlight is not bright enough to activate the cones in the fovea to any great amount. However, the rods, which are more sensitive but only perceive gray-scale, would have adequate light. When you look at a black and white photograph, you can tell what the colors "should" be based on their relationship to each other on the gray scale, and from past experience with known colors of some objects (baseline). Obviously there are instances where blues may be perceived as reds, etc. by viewers of a B/W photo, but generally the color estimation of natural objects is correct.
So, given that the witness had higher than average amount of moonlight, and that the moonlight was not diffused, but directly cast upon the animal from the direction of the observer, there may have been enough light to allow some color to be seen. Given a hint of color, and the relative gray scale of the animal to the known color of the surroundings (including the tent), the brain will fill in the gaps, and leave a perception of the colors involved.
Could the eyes have been a different hue that is the same as brown in gray scale; like purple or green? Yes, but unlikely. The witness is also recalling the event from a year before, and may have unknowingly added details to his perception; again, the brain filling in the gaps automatically. The color of the eyes being perceived as brown in the conditions mentioned is more likely accurate than not.
October 26th, 2006 12:30 PM
monkeychaser I believe that the initial 4.5' object was the large female squatting down. The tree limbs start at about 4.5' in that spot. The witness was very adamant about the width of the dark figure next to the stump when we visited the site. Photos posted soon.
October 26th, 2006 12:44 PM
timidyshadowhider thats sure makes sense too. I was assuming from the report that it appeared as if there was a smaller one first, then a larger. That makes sense if she had been hunched down watching the camper and deciding what to do with him being in "her" space. I also liked the info given about the eye color,and the light explanantion- that clarified some points for me as well. Thanks!
October 26th, 2006 01:40 PM
captainkillmore Sounds like an intense experience. The first sighting of a brown patch 4.5 ft tall but really wide, would seem to me to be "her" crouching and maybe quadripedal crawling around checking things out. Since it is almost completely agfreed upon that BF's have higher olfactory capabilities then we do l then surmise she may have been circling him quadripedally checking scent trails and such, seems reasonable enough. My question is this : Did the witness have any leftover meal laying around or any kind of food source that might have attracted her to his camp and if the witness did, then she might have been tempted to try to drive him off to get at it. Her trying to keep walking straight up to him resembles the passive agressive attitude of my little female dog, she will just lower her head and keep trying to jump in your lap even tho you scold her and tell her no, then maybe this female BF was trying that "pushy" attitude to get at the food source. Just speculation here, my brain working overtime.
October 26th, 2006 02:05 PM
monkeychaser Witness had eaten an MRE previously in the day, and discarded the wrapper in a trashcan on the trail. Other MRE's were sealed. He hadn't caught any fish yet, either (but I didn't ask about a bait box or tackle box, those can get pretty stinky). The stream was narrow and shallow, and the pools that I saw were no more than 3' deep at the most.

My guess is that the witness made some noise while setting up camp that was noticed by the animal, which came to check things out when it thought it was safe to do so. The animal may then have discovered that there was only one person in the area, and felt comfortable enough to expose itself in it's curiousity. It is also possible that the witness inadvertantly set up his camp near the bedded-down-for-the-day sasquatch, which caused it to act in a territorial manner. There were many other pools that would have fish; not just the one the witness camped next to. No crawdads at this elevation.
October 26th, 2006 09:35 PM
timidyshadowhider Is that witness planning on going back to that area again at any time or is he not willing to? It would be interesting if he went back and camped and had a camera, etc and maybe, just maybe things would play out better for him?
October 26th, 2006 10:41 PM
monkeychaser He's scared ****less about staying in the woods overnight; at least for now. He said that our daylight return trip had him pretty shaken up. He had goosebumps and was shaking a little when he recounted his incident when we were at the site.
October 27th, 2006 03:01 PM
Matt I can easily imagine that this would have been a highly traumatic event for the witness. Monkeychaser maybe if you have the email address for the witness you could invite him to the forums? I think these forums could be therapeutic for someone like the witness who has had a very frightening encounter. At this point I imagine the witness would be afraid to go alone in the woods anywhere and will be seeing a monster behind every bush. That would suck. I would hate to see this guy's love of the great outdoors and backpacking ruined by the type of encounter he'll likely never experience again even if he wanted to.

Now if the witness does stop by the forums he might not want to tell us that he is the witness right away. I am not asking to invite him simply to pick his brain. I feel bad for him and think that he might be able to find something here that would temper his experience.
October 27th, 2006 03:10 PM
Tyler H Agreed Matt - he might feel better even just reading encounters like Killmore's and others, and may eventually want to speak up (reading the conversations usually makes people want to jump in) - but even if he does not identify who he is, or speak up, or even contribute on the forum, just reading the posts may be good.
October 27th, 2006 03:23 PM
captainkillmore It would be great therapy, I have found it very refreshing and actually it has helped me alot by seeing others who have had similiar experiences. I took a couple of months before i found this site on the internet, I had a lot to digest and sort out and when I was ready I guess i went seeking validation and support and have found it. This brings me to Thank each and everyone of you here whom have accepted and helped me come to terms with my situation , just a few months ago I was still staying awake all night , clutching my 12 gage and only trying to sleep during daylight. Now I realize if they wanted me they would have got me that first night with no problems. I still won't venture into the woods alone at night , I probably never will, I have been an avid hunter and outdoorsmen my whole life but I will never go for walks alone in the night again , but I can in the daylight with no fear unless something comes around then I get a stab of fear and freeze until I can identify whatever is making noise, so far no BF'S in daylight if I were to walk up on one , I am not sure what I would do but feeling terrified , that is only sure response I know i would have. Anyway , this process is all about time, it will take time to regain my old reserve and start enjoying the outdoors like once did, as a child would go out and play in the nearest woods and even lie down and take naps , I do not think that will ever happen again but I will regain my joy from nature walks and watching the wildlife again , it just takes time.
October 29th, 2006 12:31 AM
Tyler H Hey Bill, Mohara

I've never shot anything close range in the dark, and still not sure how close the animal truly got to the shooter, but just thinking maybe the flash from the gun could have also have contributed some light to the subject.
October 29th, 2006 02:32 AM
trailrider If bigfoot killed you there would be no BFRO report ....

Q: How many "no reports" are out there ? A: Infinite.

How many missing persons in the backcountry are there ?

There is an area in BC - Chehalis / Pitt lake area something like 22 people have gone missing in the backcountry in this known BF area.

I think the safest areas for BF research are those which are not the remotest of wilderness areas, but areas where BF is in regular contact or observation of man. Where BF actively observes man.

For all we know BF has an ongoing "humans research project". Do they have bits of our equipment, old discarded newspapers, photographs, reports of looking in house windows, observing humans watching images on tv. Reports of image cature devices that violate the First rule of BF society - "Do not be seen". I wonder if they know what cameras are all about ?

If I had an opportunity to pull out a flash camera in the middle of the night and get "the shot" I would hesitate ....

Killmore - you know you can get 12 gauge shells that are loaded with a single slug instead of buckshot. All the BC woodsmen carry them. Must be the equivalent of a 150 calibre.
October 29th, 2006 08:42 AM
mohara
Quote:
Tyler H wrote:
Hey Bill, Mohara

I've never shot anything close range in the dark, and still not sure how close the animal truly got to the shooter, but just thinking maybe the flash from the gun could have also have contributed some light to the subject.



I don't know if that could make much light. if anything, it would likely blind the shooter for a second. I agree with Bill on the interpretations of shading and such. I am a mountaineer and have been at high altitude under a full moon that was bright enough to climb like it was noon. but the spectrum of the light is different, and regardless of the strength, colors dont show.

i was not questioning the witness's validity at all. from the report, it sounds like the story is quite credible, given the things Bill found at the site that matched up. the colors are not crucial details to the story. i was simply pointing out an inaccuracy that i am sure was the mind interpreting things, and saying that it is a good warning to account for that filling in process when looking at all the details. the misinterpretation of the distances from the tent might be another example.

another question:
did the witness report anything suggesting infrasound was involved. I'm still not sure how i feel about that topic, but in this case, the witness's reaction to the events and the return trip might suggest such an explanation. especially given his background. granted, the encounter itself would be frightening...
October 29th, 2006 01:05 PM
UtahBigFootBeliever I am not sure how i would react either to such a close encounter. meaning it walking towards me. I have experienced seeing things watch me in the woods, duck behind trees or rocks and stuff. I have been followed. We have had our camp rummaged through when we were fishing. If i had one walking up to me, i would be scared as hell, but i probably would not do anything but stare until it snapped my neck :) I do not think they are violent, but you never know what could happen. I have been 10 feet from a grizzly bear in Denali National Park and it just huffed as it walked by, just wanted me to know it was there. It could have turned on me in a second and i would not have ever been found. Animals only attack if they are sick, hungry or protecting or scared. I have no problems camping in bear country or bigfoot country as long as they know i am not a threat.

JM
October 29th, 2006 01:53 PM
Ace!
Quote:
trailrider wrote:
...Killmore - you know you can get 12 gauge shells that are loaded with a single slug instead of buckshot. All the BC woodsmen carry them. Must be the equivalent of a 150 calibre.


Caliber is based on inches, so a 150 caliber would be 1.5 inches. A 12 g slug isn't that big. It would still slow most anything down at that range though. I always carry slugs or buckshot with me when I have my shotgun, even if I'm bird hunting, so I can throw a couple in the gun if there is something "big" around.
October 29th, 2006 10:13 PM
captainkillmore Lol I have 3" inch mag hollow point slug shells I use in the 12 gage. It will creat a hole about 3 -5inches in diameter on the other side of whatever i shoot and I am sure it will penetrate any animal on the North American continent with ease. Maybe not at great range but any shot under 20yrds it will blast right thru. The point to the whole matter is this, when a 8-9 ft tall great ape type beig , which is almost as massive a quarter horse or better, even a good placed shot in the chest and it will still be able to egt to you and do whatever it intended before it dies. I have ful confidence in my shooting abilities also, I know i can hit whatever I aim at when hunting or even self defense , unless I am so shook that I can't see straight, I would hate to just wound one , then you are done if it wants you or if you do kill the one then the one behind you is gonna get you. I have come to the conclusion that they do indeed , seem to tend to travel in pairs when called or lured or coming in to investigate something. Chance encounters , maybe one on one only but otherwise , seems to always be a pair.
Another point not realy mentioned , when you do indeed get confronted by one of these close up , there is a mixture of wonder and total fear. They are massive and I can tell you this til blue in the face it won't ever really register in your brain til it happens to you. I am a member of a club it seems, the close up BF club, some say lucky, I say cursed. I have been changed forever from this , I have a fear instilled in me like a infabt the first time they get a spanking. I will never be the same again. Even now when i walk during the daytiime around the property, I am always looking for one , if I hear anything make noise I remember that night and the seciond we locked eyes and i stand mortiofied til whatever made that noise is idebtified to me.When I try to call em in , I am fine, I think they are peaceful , mean no harm , just curius, til I hear a brwnch break, then maybe a footstep , then the fear creeps over me like a veil. The nights i lure them to get recordings, I am terrified all night , ready to get in van and leave as fast as I can. I dont like this feeling , I go thru this process with the hopes of getting anything to prove my case. I get that rush when going over footage and charting recordings , maybe I got it this time, but i go thru hell to get it. It sounds easy for most of you, just call em in and record them , no sweat, but it is sweat , to me, I still deep down know there are giants outside my home and I can do nothing to them and they can do anything they want to me and mine and I could not stop them. Helpless feeling i guess , that is the key word , totally helpless feeling , at mercy of the giant hairy men. But there is the gold mine of the possibilty of making the proof of the biggest argument in scientific history in North America, that keeps me goping also, maybe I can get that holy grail footage.

My last statment in this post , finally, I talk to all of you and see where many of you think it would be the greatest or coolest to have one close up maybe you would hand them an apple maybe eat next to them, to all who think that , I just shake my head and say this, " Be thankful you haven't had one come so close to you. You might think you want to have that great encounter, you don't , it will make you different for all time and not necessarily for the good. It will make you the crazy guy who had a dream , you will come under the scrutiny of the whole world , every skeptic in the country will say you are out to make money that is all, there is no money, if you open your mouth about it , you might not like what you find. Only people who are members of the Bigfoot Upclose Club will know what I mean, all others can try but you can't know til it happens to you. Logical thought escapes you and you become a cowering child confronted by the unknown and helpless to stop it at what ever it wants to do ,. Even if you do shoot it, you will be done for I am sure. I don't want to take that chance, not when by myself least of all times.
(Edited by captainkillmore)
October 30th, 2006 04:23 PM
Ace! I agree, that's why I said it would slow it down (not drop it in it's tracks). If you shoot it, if you're using a shotgun, it'll be close enough to do whatever it wants before it dies. I think the way to shoot one would be large caliber, high velocity rifle at some distance, not that I would. I'd be scared to death though.
October 30th, 2006 04:52 PM
captainkillmore That would be the only ideal way to do it. Then wait and see if another comes out to help it. Maybe you cuold drive the second off , with lots of help mind you , and get to the corpse but I would use something very fast and agile to get it, quads with trailers maybe get quarter of a mile away from site and hook trailer to truck and hightail it.
October 30th, 2006 05:14 PM
Tyler H
Quote:
Mohara wrote:
I don't know if that could make much light. if anything, it would likely blind the shooter for a second


Well, I have not shot any moving things in the dark, but have shot a rifle in the dark, years ago - I thought the flash did light up a small area in front of the rifle, without blinding the shooter - the light is not really bright enough to blind, and is projected away from the barrel, rather than back towards you - I'm just not experienced enough to know how much light is cast in relation to the eye's ability to determine color, and don't remember clearly how big the flash was. Maybe others have done so more recently, and can comment.
October 30th, 2006 05:22 PM
HuntedWon If I was under enough control to shoot to the side of it, were it threatening me in that manner, I can safely say I would have burnt the entire magazine into the center of mass and reloaded quickly.
To answer your questions, a 12gauge slug is .7620, the bore of a 23 at the end of the forcing cone should be right on .750. A slug is most effective within 100 yards, and the sheer impact trauma is enough to stop a rampaging Ape of Unsusal Size. A 1 oz lead slug 3/4 of an inch in diameter hitting ANYthing at 1200 FPS is going to be daggone sobering. You bust to two caps on something EVEN 500 lbs and the effects will be worse than the coloquialism - FUGLY.
I myself cannot believe this gentleman did not 10 ring her, because as above stated something being so threatening, I WOULD have, keeping sanity of course.
I do not like to think of going out and actively hunting one, but if it were necessary for science or in the event a BF went bad and hurt someone, I would want a .35 Whelen with a Nosler Partition. As well as a trusted buddy with a 12 Gauge incase he came to us, loaded with slug/buck/slug/buck etc.

Someone mentioned above the fact of people going missing in BF country never to be found again. Who knows? We Don't and that is the point, I don't think we should ever assume or entertain the possibility that they were 'got' by BF, but we can't overlook it wither. Cap made a good point, there a lot of people that do NOT want to be in the 5ft from BF club. I don't think I want to join, and I damn sure don't want to sit down to a snack of fruit with one until I know a hell of a lot more than I do.
October 30th, 2006 06:09 PM
Ted S. The last time I fired off my rifle in dark; like pitch black; shooting at targets (flashlite was used to see spot targets for shooter) it threw a flame out end about 2 feet red-orange-yellow in color, with each shot fired.

I don't remember if it blinded me but am sure it did. Well not blind, but momentary loss of sight. Am also sure it would have ruined the night vision of all who were looking at me when I fired. The flash did light up a small area of maybe 10 feet or so, but only for the split second of the shot. As well as deafen those nearby not wearing protecton.

calibur: 7.62x39mm. stopping power: not getting into that.

As for the shotgun with slug/00/slug/00 load. That is what was described as the back up weapon of chioce for guides in Alaska. With shortened barrel and stock, pump action. If the rifle jammed, the shotgun can be used at close range to put down a charging bear. very close range. (this information was gleaned from several articles I have read in different sportsmens magazines on subjsct of back up weapons)

NOTE: Am not saying that anyone should shoot a bigfoot. This is just in reference to other post in this thread. I carry my rifle mainly for the other critters out there, black bears, cougars, and other's. For personel protection.
October 30th, 2006 07:11 PM
Tyler H Hmmm - I still can't see the light being "blinding" - especially in a full moon situation - it's just a flame - a strong flame, or small explosion - and it's not flashed directly into your eyes, like a camera flash... I would think in a split second flash from a gun, if something was close enough (which it doesn't really sound like it was), it may have added to his perception that "the nipples were brown".
(Edited by Tyler H)
October 30th, 2006 11:23 PM
Matt Good post Cap. For those of us who haven't had an up-close-and-personal encounter you really do a good job in describing what it would be like. It's one thing to have an encounter while you are out camping but quite another to have one at home. I can't even imagine. There is an old saying "becareful what you wish for". I would love to see one (not from my living room though) but I have said many times that I really don't know how I would react if I did. My wife offered once to go with me on my own expedition and I told her "No!". If I'm out in the woods in the middle of the night and one steps out of the bushes I'm pretty sure I'm going to crap my pants and then run, if I'm not paralyzed with fear, as if the devil himself were chasing me. As much as I love my wife and would do anything for her I couldn't guarantee that I would stay and defend her. Just being honest here. Not saying I'm a coward just that no man can know how he'd react in that situation until it happens. So, the wife stays at home and I only have my own neck to worry about.

If I ever happen to attend an expedition with any of you here, be advised, I will be wearing my running shoes just in case. And remember....I don't have to be faster than the squatch, just faster than you! ;)
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